Posts by drew sagan

94

The growing irrelevance of the Watchtower message

by drew sagan in

in many ways it appears as if the watchtower movement is slowing down.

a number of changes over the last few years certainly show that the watchtower is in a period of transition.

they have cut back on the number of magazines they print as well as lowered the cost of production by eliminating things like hard backed books.

drew sagan

On the Watchtower's treadmill of activity, there is a "one size fits all" system of uniformity that ignores many of the unique and diverse needs of it's members. I believe that this is why so many people give up their activity in the organization out of sheer exhaustion, depression, and discouragement. It is also why so many youths just are not invigorated or inspired very much.

Labeling it as a "One size fits all" couldn't point out the problem any better. The Watchtower refuses to see value in local congregations having any sort of autonomy, even when it comes down to simple things like social activities. The general attitude is "If it's not scheduled by HQ, it doesn't matter".

20

eschatological expectancy causes tiredness

by stillajwexelder in

an elder confesssed to me the other week that they had an elders meeting and the topic was rasied about how tired the brothers were.

he said "quite frankly, the brothers expected armageddon a long time ago and they are just exhausted".

i then enquired of him "do you think the wtbts keeping us in a permanent state of eschatological expectancy causes strain and stress and tiredness - he said yes.

drew sagan

Quite interesting. Thanks for pointing out this post to me ;)

94

The growing irrelevance of the Watchtower message

by drew sagan in

in many ways it appears as if the watchtower movement is slowing down.

a number of changes over the last few years certainly show that the watchtower is in a period of transition.

they have cut back on the number of magazines they print as well as lowered the cost of production by eliminating things like hard backed books.

drew sagan

The group definitely relies on a constant stream of recruits coming in WHO ARE NEW TO THE MESSAGE. It's these folks who bring in enthusiasm, cause they haven't lived through the years of the same ol', same ol'. Even if the message seems kind of weird, being based on some far-out 1914 mumbo-jumbo, the seeming chaos presented by the media still helps clinch the deal.

I understand this perspective, but have doubts about new recruits lasting impact.

I was a new recruit in the late 90's and did not last one decade in the organization. The main reason was because the idealistic picture of the organization I had before I became a member dealt with the reality of what the organization was after I became a member. I went right into pioneer work but became extremely frustrated because I did not the see excitement I had as a new member within those who had been JWs for many years. Their lack of enthusiasm eventually made me give up my idealism. I can't help but wonder about how many other converts out there meet with the same disappointment I did.

The organization can bring people in, but how do they maintain that excitement? I doubt that they can. There is nothing that people can grab ahold of that continues them to be active in the faith. You come in with lots of excitement only to realize that everybody else is doing half of what you thought they were.

I realized that most all JWs viewed it as a routine, not as the exciting and thrilling lifestyle they tell you it is. Many JWs make very little sacrifice to be JW, rather they fit it around their regularly scheduled activities.

As for your assessment as to what will happen when new members don't come in fast enough to replace old members, I think there is a possibly that they may be reaching that point faster than any realize.

94

The growing irrelevance of the Watchtower message

by drew sagan in

in many ways it appears as if the watchtower movement is slowing down.

a number of changes over the last few years certainly show that the watchtower is in a period of transition.

they have cut back on the number of magazines they print as well as lowered the cost of production by eliminating things like hard backed books.

drew sagan

If you motivate someone out of fear, there is a very quick response: if someone screams "fire!", people respond by running really fast...for a really short period of time. Amazing things can be done in short bursts based on fear. The problem was that it wasn't sustainable. Thus, many would go strong with the program for about three years, and just burn out, give up hope...and drop out.

On the other hand, this particular member simply started to take the screams of "fire!" with a grain of salt...and eventually after years in the group it started to sound like the screams from the boy who cried wolf. Thus the message became less and less relevant.

So his take was that a group can't rely solely on fear-based motivation or they'll fizzle out.

Exactly!

I like the phrase "unsustainable". I think that says it all.

Again I go back to the Mormon model. I think that they seriously have done an excellent job at planning ahead. They are light years ahead of the Witnesses.

For those that think that some of the changes they have made recently are a big deal, I would ask you to consider those changes in a much larger context. It may be a big deal for a JW when the structure of a meeting changes, but it is nothing more than novelty. This can be said for most of the changes put forward by the Watchtower so far. They definitely show that things are slowing down, but beyond that they show no real desire for change. They may only help in slowing down the process, but cannot stop it let alone reverse it.

I would also like to comment on the idea that the WTS is hoping to scale down to a "core" of true believers. I wonder if such a thing actually exists. From my own personal experience very few people I ever knew as JWs could really be considered "core" believers. Most were going along with the flow, under the pressure from family and friends. Sure they believed it, but their activity levels were more the result from the fear they would have a negative label attached to themselves and their families. If the GB thinks they can scale back to a 'core' they are going to find themselves pretty lonely.

94

The growing irrelevance of the Watchtower message

by drew sagan in

in many ways it appears as if the watchtower movement is slowing down.

a number of changes over the last few years certainly show that the watchtower is in a period of transition.

they have cut back on the number of magazines they print as well as lowered the cost of production by eliminating things like hard backed books.

drew sagan

I think the WTS has pushed it to the limit and beyond.

And unlike other times in the organizations past, the organization is not flexible enough to rapidly move in another direction. It can now be likened to the titanic. It must be turned slowly and cautiously. To many changes to quickly may weaken current members, not enough change hurts the chances of future survival. Will they get the balance right?

94

The growing irrelevance of the Watchtower message

by drew sagan in

in many ways it appears as if the watchtower movement is slowing down.

a number of changes over the last few years certainly show that the watchtower is in a period of transition.

they have cut back on the number of magazines they print as well as lowered the cost of production by eliminating things like hard backed books.

drew sagan

Very interesting points done4good.

If your conclusions are true and their long term plan follows along what you are suggesting, then they are doomed. It is nothing more than isolationism and will not survive. That is the basic premise behind my post. Using apocalyptic belief as the foundation of your movement is very unwise. It offers nothing but disappointment. The JW youth are already showing that they barely believe the message. Yes they may verbalize it, but their behavior tells a different story.

As Awakened at Gilead pointed out, the growing distance between the current generation of people on earth and 1914 continues to grow each year. The type of people who would have joined the JWs in the early 1900's through the 1930's would never join the JWs today. They are the type of people who latch onto movements with much more modern relevance. Compare that with a group that may arise tomorrow and begin to proclaim that the end is year. They don't have a 100+ year history of failed expectations, the Watchtower does. The longer you proclaim the end is near, the less people tend to take seriously your opinion.

Think about it. The most exciting thing according to the Watchtower at this point is what happened in it's past. There is nothing to look forward to but cataclysmic change. Yet in the past the movement had the entire world before it. It was in the past they were chosen by God (supposedly) and refined. It was in the past that all the magic happened. Once they set up ministries in all countries are now in waiting mode.

23

Guided by Delusions of Granduer 2009 District Convention program

by Not Feeling It in

it was sent by a rampant, serial-emailing, hardcore jw.

i didn't see copies on a half-assed 1-minute search.

so sorry if this is a duplicate post.. should be called "guided by voices" in my opinion as a subtle truism and tribute to a nifty band.. -- not attending it.

drew sagan

you should upload the pdf!!!

5

My first "apostasy" mission

by easyreader1970 in

jw
friends

yesterday was my first small attempt at "apostasy".

i thought i did a very good job of it myself.

i had some interesting results.. i tried on two people: my wife (the biggest, baddest jw you could ever come up against) and my mother (who used to be but has cooled in the past ten or twelve years or so).

drew sagan

The Watchtower has been very effective in convincing the average JW member that the past is not relevant. That the Bible Students, Russell, Rutherford, ect, could pretty make any kind of mistake and still be chosen by God. Rather than try to defend their past actions, they simply say "yeah, they were screwed up, so what?".

I remember learning things about Russell on the internet when I first started studying with JWs. I even saw a video of Ray Franz talking on freeminds. The point I'm trying to make is that such things didn't effect me because i didn't realize their relevance.

Understanding the relevance of these things only comes when one is confronted with a crisis of faith. It is impossible to get others to care about things you care about, at least in this context. You can go on and on about how weird the Bible Students were, but to a modern JW what is the relevance? They have been convinced their is none and will laugh when it is brought up.

But when you question, doubt and struggle through the Watchtower these things then have importance to you. You see that they are relevant. You attitude has changed.

I remember my wife telling me a number of times that it helped her when I showed that it wasn't just facts about the WTS past that was important, but it was how I continued to tell her that these things were not as irrelevant as they taught us they were.

94

The growing irrelevance of the Watchtower message

by drew sagan in

in many ways it appears as if the watchtower movement is slowing down.

a number of changes over the last few years certainly show that the watchtower is in a period of transition.

they have cut back on the number of magazines they print as well as lowered the cost of production by eliminating things like hard backed books.

drew sagan

I do agree with what you say, I just don't think they will crumble and fall, not anytime soon anyway.

First of all, I'd like to be very clear. I do not believe that people who have left the organization, aka "apostates" will be the demise of the Watchtower Society in a way that many would assume. First, I think that the role of ex-jws is much more important in regards to the many people that end up not entering the Watchtower system at all. People who may be studying or interested in the faith, but after doing research on the net decide not to.

Also, I am not looking in the short term. I'm thinking more of 30-50 years down the road. Were will the movement be then? I really believe that it fundamentally has to change dramatically. The current structure, or even something that closely resembles it is not prepared to support such a drawn out presence on the world scene. One thing I continue to think of is the youth of the movement. They continue to tell the youth to reach out for positions and privileges they never can receive (gilead, CO, ect), not to mention that usually most of the prestige is given to men. The youth in this organization have nothing realistic that they can reach out and take as their own. This is a huge mistake on the Watchtowers part and shows me that they are not as sophisticated and intelligent as their image may suggest. Smart people plan for the future. Stupid people insist that there will be no future (in this world). I remember a five or so years back the Watchtower published a brochure for their youth that told them all the privileges they could reach out for. It was unrealistic. Gilead for example graduates two classes a year I believe, and those people are usually in their 30's. What the hell kind of goal is that! Work for a decade and a half after high school and maybe you can go to a school with only 100 students. Get real. Nobody reaches out because there is nothing to reach out and take.

Currently the Watchtower is on a path of growing isolation. They are becoming more and more disengaged from the world around them. They control the flow of all information and have restricted what is published on the internet. Rather than engage those who criticize them they ignore the critics and suppress intellectuals from going out and defending the faith on an academic level. They have gone from the time of Russell where debates occurred frequently by those in charge of the articles in the magazines, to complete isolation by the writers of the magazines. We don't even know who writes the articles. They are no names, isolated from any criticism and academic responsibility. It may serve a purpose, but not in the long term.

What I picture is a continued weakening of the Watchtowers power over the average member. Eventually more and more people like Greg Stafford are going to start popping up saying that the group has lost it's way and needs to reform. It is people like him who are really the most dangerous to the Watchtower Society. While many who leave argue that all of the teachings of the JWs are wrong, people like Stafford maintain much of the theological doctrine.

When reformers try to take over a faith it can descent into confusion. This is possible if the WTS allows itself to weaken during the next 30-50 years. The problem is that in order to solidify the movement and push it forward it will have to begin to give up long held taboos and teachings. They can change, and may yet still. But I see nothing that suggests it's on its' way yet. Just more isolationism which amounts to denying the obvious.

94

The growing irrelevance of the Watchtower message

by drew sagan in

in many ways it appears as if the watchtower movement is slowing down.

a number of changes over the last few years certainly show that the watchtower is in a period of transition.

they have cut back on the number of magazines they print as well as lowered the cost of production by eliminating things like hard backed books.

drew sagan

They already are.

Are they really? So far what I have seen has been defensive action, not offensive. They are cutting back rather than adding.

The movement needs something new and fresh. This may yet come but it sure has not appeared yet.